Think Different Theory

FBI Agent Turned Sales Coach – Chris Voss


I’m very excited to bring on a Chris Voss to the podcast. He is a former FBI hostage negotiator and the CEO of the Black Swan group and a sales professional. Chris did something that is extremely rare for a hostage negotiator, he ventured into the business world.

But not only did Chris venture into the business world, but he also started one of the premier sales consultancies in the world. After probing the market, he found that there was a niche for the unique strategies that were applied in the FBI and they were not being used in normal corporate business at all.


In this episode, we will dive into how Chris got started in negotiations and how you can apply the skills the FBI teaches in your business.

Here are the key topics discussed in this episode:

  • The backstory of entering the FBI (03:03)
  •  Big takeaways learned from the FBI (07:45)
  • The ultimate cold call (14:40)
  • Why people love FBI style in the business world (22:55)
  • Systems thinking (33:01)
  • The two-pronged follow-up (47:15)
  • Key determining factors for success (58:42)


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July 3, 2019


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Disclaimer:     The Transcript Is Auto Generated And May Contain Spelling And Grammar Errors

Chris: 00:00:00 Just be just a little nicer.

Josh: 00:00:04 A little nicer.

Chris: 00:00:05 Stick to your principles. Stick to the things that you believe in. You know, never stop advocating on behalf of what you believe in. Advocate for what you believe in. Just probably be just a little nicer about it. Don’t change, and you’re going to find out that you’ll get a lot further.

Intro: 00:00:30 You are now entering a new paradigm. So, here’s my issue. I wanted to find the answers to life’s biggest questions. Things like, how do I become happy and live with purpose? How do I make more money doing what I love, and what does it mean to be truly successful in all areas of life? My name is Josh Forti, @JoshForti on Instagram, and I ask life’s biggest questions and share the answers with you. My goal is to help you find purpose, happiness, and open your mind to new realms of possibility by helping you think differently about everything you do, know, and understand. On this podcast, we think different, we dream bigger, and we live in a world without limits. This is a new paradigm. Welcome to The Think Different Theory.

Josh: 00:01:14 What’s up guys? Welcome back to another episode of The Think Different Theory. My name is Josh Forti and we have a very special guest today. In fact, I am very excited about this. This guest, I actually had no idea who he was until I read his book. He is the author of the book, “Never Split the Difference.” And, when I first saw the title of the book, I remember thinking, “Oh, okay. So this book is going to be about if you’re in negotiation with someone, and they’re offering you $50, and you want $70, don’t… don’t take the $50. It’s quite… it’s quite deeper than that. There’s a lot more that goes into it than just that. I’m very excited to bring on a Chris Voss to us. He is a former FBI hostage negotiator. He is the CEO of the Black Swan group and a sales professional.

Josh: 00:02:06 Chris Voss, thank you so much for your time and for coming on the, I think, different theory. Yeah. Josh, my pleasure, man. I’m gonna enjoy this conversation. Thanks. Yeah, absolutely. So I actually, I read your book, I don’t know, this was probably eight months ago or so for the first time, I was really big into reading and studying sales. I’ve read a lot of different sales books and I posted a picture on it and I remember kind of geeking out because you liked my status on Facebook. And um, I actually read the book like two or three times now. It’s such, such a good book and it covers so many things that I don’t think a lot of people think about when it comes to sales. But for those people that don’t know who you are, I want to go quickly into just a backstory of your FBI days, how you got into that and then leading up to where you got into sales and to start in your company now. Cause I think the backstory here is really crucial and it brings a lot of context to, you’re so good at what you do. So take us back. You’re going to the FBI. How did you decide I’m going to go to the FBI? Like how did that happen? You know, like most of the cool things in life, it’s sort of fell out of this

Chris: 00:03:13 guy. I, uh, I was a police officer, cop KCM. Oh, Kansas City, Missouri Police Department. Casey is a great town man, great Midwestern town, got a lot of advantages and uh, you know, um, my father wanted me to advance up the ladder. You know, your Dad’s gonna have ambitions for you, especially if your father paid for a college degree and you went out and got a job that didn’t require a college degree. You know, the old man’s looking on looking to get a return on his investment. Right, right. That’s right. So, uh, you know, he encouraged me to look at federal law enforcement. I didn’t know one federal agency from another DEA, CIA, FBI, NRA. I mean, I didn’t know what any of these words, but he had a buddy who was with the secret service at the time. And, uh, I spoke to the guy on the phone and he said, hey man, I have traveled all over the world with the secret service.

Chris: 00:04:07 Now. I know I got a convoluted accent, but I did grow up in Iowa. And so at this point in time in my life, I’d never been anywhere. I mean, I, I don’t even know that I’d even seen Canada from across the bridge. So the idea is somebody would pay me to travel all over the world. I’m like, oh no, I could get into that. Right. So secret service wasn’t hiring at the time. A to my good fortune. Not that the secret service is not a bad job too. Great job. Just probably wouldn’t have been for me. The FBI was, and I didn’t, no one from the other. So I put in an application with the FBI, they hired me, they’re hired and bunch of folks at the time I ended up in New York City, uh, and loved it and became a hostage negotiator there. And uh, you know, on the, a bunch of others things fell out of the sky. And here I am on your pocket

Josh: 00:04:56 and here we are. The podcast was just so awesome talking about sales and all that, but okay, first off, I got to start. If you’re from Kansas City, are you a sports fan? All right. So from Iowa lived in Kansas City. Absolutely.

Chris: 00:05:09 Yeah. A sports fan. Love the fact that the chiefs, the chiefs, the doing awesome. So if you’re going for the chiefs there, yeah. I love to see that chiefs do well.

Josh: 00:05:17 So I was at the AFC championship game, I was fifth row and I’m a huge Tom Brady fan, so I lucked out. Why? But yeah, I had a great, yeah, that was, it was some of the greatest football ever. My girlfriend bought me fifth row tickets behind the Patriots’ beds for my birthday, which was, uh, two days or three days before that game. And so I had the best day ever. This is just short of the per, for girl who, Oh man, I’m telling you. I’m telling you what, my mother told her that quote, I don’t think there was a more perfect gift in the world for Josh. So she wins there. I don’t know how I’m going to top that. Nice. Yeah. She, I think she’s got your brother. I think she does. Yeah. So. Okay, so real quick though, FBI happens, what do they look for? Like are you just hiring random people off the street or like why did they pick you or do you know,

Chris: 00:06:09 not a bureau’s looking for a lot of different types, a good job. Um, you know, whatever you’re into, doesn’t matter what you’re into. Somebody is committing a crime along those lines. So you know, you can investigate like whatever kind of crime there is. Look, if you are into art, we investigate art theft. If you’re into terrorism. I was interested in terrorism. You know, we investigate terrorism. If you’re, if you think a, you know, Frank Abagnale from a Catch me if you can, you know, you want to go after guys that write bad checks. I mean we’re, we’re, you know, we’re doing that. So it’s a great job. Ultimately, if you’re relatively patient, pretty much like anything else in life with enough patients, almost anything will come to you if you, if you take a little bit, it’s, and it’s amazing how quickly it’ll come to you. Yup. I was a, I was on a swat team. I was into that at the time, but I w what I was really into was crisis response and I ended up online as a hostage negotiator.

Chris: 00:07:07 Okay. So hostage negotiation. I’ve read the book for those people that don’t or that haven’t read the book. Um, you’ve, you’ve been in some crazy situations that led you to really have to understand how people think and how like the processes that goes through people’s minds. And so you’re there, like what are some of the big takeaways that you learned in the FBI or things that like you don’t think you would’ve learned elsewhere that you think the FBI does really well when it comes to understanding people?

Chris: 00:07:41 Well, you know, the great thing about being a hostage negotiator is, um, you start out assuming that some of the crutches that most people want are never going to be there. Like there’s a crutch that for us to make a great deal together, that we have to have common ground and it’s a crutch. It’s a handicap. There’s a crutch that I have to have alternatives. You know, my Harvard brothers and sisters advocate this thing called BATNA. Best alternative to negotiated agreement, you know, and if you don’t have a bad night, you’re screwed. That’s a crutch. So it’s really cool to start out negotiation learning from the beginning. Like, I don’t have to have common ground with this person. I don’t have to have alternatives. I could still make a great deal. And that’s what the advantage of starting out from here to begin with is.

Chris: 00:08:31 And I okay have alternatives. I don’t care if I have no alternatives, I’m not going to be taken hostage by that. And I think those are the great things about starting on a negotiation where I started out from and now, you know, we’re taking this into business. When I started out, there was no such thing as emotional intelligence as a phrase. I mean, if you’re aware in sales, in business, uh, in any aspect of the life in general that I, you know, that you need emotional intelligence. Well, hostage negotiation is just emotional intelligence. So we really started out at and a masterclass on emotional intelligence and how to make a great deal with whoever you come across. I mean, I think that’s what the FBI really gets. Right.

Josh: 00:09:18 So I do want to get into sales, but I know my audience is going to want at least one story from the FBI days. So take us back to, and I’ll let you choose either your first one or your most exciting one would that you were actually the lead negotiator on what did that look like and how like nerve wracking was that for you as you’re sitting there, cause you’ve negotiated in some pretty high profile situations, right? Yeah.

Chris: 00:09:46 Yeah. And you know what I love about most of the negotiations, um, you haven’t heard of this. Most of this stuff I did because we were successful there. You know, there’s a phrase in immediate, if it bleeds that leads well we get people out. Okay. And you’re not going to hear about it because everybody went home, everybody lived. And so yeah, we had some, we had some high profile cases. I mean I worked on a case one time where the Fox journalists, really, very few people know about this Guy Steve’s and Tony gets cramped in the Gaza Strip. You. The reason you don’t know about it is cause we got Steve Son Tony out of that. Um, and he, he went through a horrific situation and we did it with some really interesting approaches that the bad guys never knew we were there. The most dangerous negotiation is the one you don’t know you’re in. We negotiated through people where they had no idea we were influencing it. Those are great negotiations for your negotiation is invisible. So yeah, a lot of stuff that I did you haven’t heard of because we did a,

Josh: 00:10:51 so going into the sales part or side of things and coming out of the FBI what like I know you talked about emotional intelligence and you say that like the FBI taught you a lot about that. But like specifically when it comes to like the pressure of sales, cause a lot of the audience that listens to this type of podcast and that, you know, is in a Facebook group and on Youtube and whatnot, uh, they’re like, hey, I get nervous. Right? Or, you know, big deal comes in, you know, I start to sweat, I get anxious or whatnot. Did, did the FBI teach you things specifically on helping you keep your calm and keep your nerves down? Or how does you go about figuring that out? As we transitioned over to the sales side of things, maybe not so much when you know people’s lives are at stake or high profile cases, but in this setting of just, I don’t know, intense situations, be that sales be that negotiations of any stored, how important is and how did you learn that? Right? So,

Chris: 00:11:46 um, couple things that I think will be really helpful. You fall to your highest level of preparation. You don’t rise to the occasion. You fall to your highest level of preparation. You perform as you’ve rehearsed and when you’re satisfied with the process, um, then you just let the process work its way out. You don’t, you don’t, you don’t get rattled along the way. I’ve, I’ve heard an analogy being, um, you know, a guy’s walking a tight rope guy or gal. They don’t, they don’t look at where they’re going. They look down at their feet and they worry about the next step, you know, make the next step properly. Don’t go rattle about where we’re going. Let go of where you’re going and focus on a process. And, and the FBI, I always learned that we had the best chances of success, which means we fail sometimes because there’s no guarantee of success.

Chris: 00:12:39 I just want the best chance of success. So get in your head. You like your process, you get the best chances of success you do as well as you can. The Universe gonna let you succeed as well as you possibly can. And then you get your practicing, you get your reps in and understand that there is no one move that ruins everything. It’s always an accumulation. So if you’ve got a bad feeling, you’re headed down the wrong path, there’s a pretty good chance you need an adjustment. Maybe just the two-millimeter shift, maybe a tiny little shift. I mean, I loved that phrase from Tony Robbins and most of us that are Tony Robbins fans use a phrase, let’s make a two-millimeter shift. You know, I would attribute that to him and so many people I know talk about that. So make a minor adjustment and, and then give yourself the best chance of success. And, and, and, and that’s, that’s where you go. And, uh, I probably rambled a little bit, answer maybe one of your three questions.

Josh: 00:13:36 I don’t know. That’s, that’s really, really good. And I liked that a lot, especially with the two-millimeter um, part, I actually just wrote a playbook. It’s about nano 65, 67 pages long or so about habits and about the mind and about, um, you know, subconscious and whatnot. And I talk about that specifically in there and not the two millimeters, but I say that like when you’re going to change your life, when you’re gonna go try to rewire your identity, your brain, like you don’t start out by trying to go and change every single area of your life. You certainly don’t go try and go to your biggest habit and try to eliminate it just like that. You start at the root cause and you adjust it just a little bit. And those, I don’t know who was it, Peter was his name. Peter sent saying, I think his name, the American assistance guy was like, hey, you know, the smallest changes yield the biggest results, but the areas of biggest leverage are often, you know, the hardest to find. And I think that’s super important, uh, to recognize and understand. Um, but, but shifting over now to the sales side of it,

Chris: 00:14:33 you,

Josh: 00:14:34 you got in how, how, okay, so let, let’s back up. Let me point out. Um, I was a salesman

Chris: 00:14:40 as a high FBI hostage negotiator. You know, I’m, I’m, I’m cold calling, I’m calling into the bank. That’s a cold call. It’s the ultimate cold call. Awesome. They call and it to a bank and you know what I was, what would you say that jail time. Alright. Buyers jail time versus death. Huh. That’s, that’s, and that’s, I feel like that’s such an interesting perspective to have too, because I feel like so, so many people are like, you know, they find it hard to make something not sexy or appealing, appealing. And it’s like, I mean, you’re selling jail time and you’re getting buyers from it. What is one, Gosh, I have so many questions on this. How does one go and structure the offer? Like what, like what comes into that? How do you know what to, to position? Well, a, it’s the latest save time.

Chris: 00:15:33 The secret of negotiation is letting the other side have your way. So, you know, you, I know what I’m listening for. I got to get them talk. You know, I’m not, I’m not selling what I’m selling. I’m not pitching, you know, I don’t have a value proposition here. You know, the reality of my proposition is jail time of death. The reality of most sales, People’s interaction with their client is, you know, I got the best solution for you. Check my solution. Or You escrowed you know, you’re gonna fail. You can’t pitch it like that. And they, you know, if that pitch worked, you wouldn’t be listening to this podcast.

Chris: 00:16:17 So, you know, you got, you gotta get the other side, uh, understanding you a little bit more. Like, here’s a classic mistake most salespeople make. Yeah. Like this. I spent a lot of time getting to know my client. I mean a really get to know them. I get to know them and I can’t get them to call me back. I had one salesman telling me that. I said, that’s exactly the problem and the what. I said, say that again. I said, I spend a lot of time getting to know my client. I can’t get them to call me back. I said, exactly. They’ve got no idea who you are. You know them. You know everything about them. That feels very intrusive to them. Every time you talk to them on the phone, you’re using the name eight times. You know they feel cut off. They feel cornered.

Chris: 00:17:05 They feel you. You know this micro agreement nonsense. You know the yes momentum, momentum, sell and get micro groom. It’s timed down. Everything you’re doing makes them feel trapped. No wonder they not talking, calling you back. Here’s what I want you to do next time you call them on the phone. If I’m you say, Hey, it’s Chris. You don’t, don’t say hi is Chris Voss there? Can I please speak to Chris Voss? Now you’re trying to be respectful with that approach. First of all, you’re telling them it’s a sales call. Nobody you know, cause you on the phone and says, hi. Is Chris boss there? I already know it’s a sales call. I already know you’re hustling and you’re already hiding it from me. Start out and say, hey, it’s Chris. Have I caught you at a bad time? You now they know your first name. At least they know who you are and you’ve immediately given control back to them.

Chris: 00:18:02 The secret of gaining the upper hand in a negotiation or sale is given the other side of the illusion of control. Now they feel in control. Now they know who you are. That a little less tense. Their mind is starting to slowly come open. You’re not hammering them with their own name. Hey Chris, how are you today? Chris, would you like to make more money? Chris, would you like to have more free time? Chris, Chris, Chris, Chris, Chris, Chris. I don’t like that. I’m feeling trapped. I’m feeling cut off. Get out of that to start off with.

Chris: 00:18:34 So you said the illusion of control. How does one maintain the upper hand while still giving someone the illusion of control throughout the conversation? Yeah. You know, it’s uh, making somebody feel like there’s a freedom of response. Uh, if he asked any questions at all. I mean, don’t ask questions where you’re seeking a yes. Now that there’s three kinds of yeses, commitment, confirmation, counterfeit. Now you may be genuinely, legitimately, respectfully, simply trying to seek a confirmation. Yes. Many people do this. You know, is there anything about what I’ve said today that works for you? I mean, yours respectfully trying to seek a confirmation. Yes. With that, the problem is they’ve been trapped with the so many times that you’re already creating distrust in the relationship. You know, the used car salesperson, the swamp land seller, um, you know, whoever’s got hustle, the coupon book seller, you know, I have $25,000 worth of coupons for $25.

Chris: 00:19:46 Does that sound like something that would be useful to you? I come on. So don’t start verb led questions where you’re, where you’re seeking, hoping, confirming. If you’re after. Yes. In any way, shape or form. Have the other side of that illusion and control only ask what and how questions. If you ask what and how questions, here’s a crazy one. Instead of saying, do you agree with this? Say, do you disagree? Invite the no, intentionally trigger a no. Jim Camp wrote this phenomenal book which really got us started on this thought pattern to begin with. His book was called start with no, and while it wasn’t, Ann is still is not as company’s methodology to intentionally trigger a no. His whole philosophy was built around saying like, look, he was saying no to this at any time. Tell me, tell me to go away. Tell me this doesn’t work for you at any point in time, please feel free to say no and he understood that returning the other side, there are autonomy which actually makes them more inclined to agree and his people he was training with this started hitting.

Chris: 00:20:58 They started raising their, their close rates. They started raising our conversion rates just by inviting them though. Well, at one point in time when my company, we were like, hmm, what happens if we actually make them say, no, you know this, this is the world in this is sky fall. Does do cats begin to make with dogs? You know, like, you know, is this the apocalypse? And then we found out that holy cow, when you actually get them to say no, like when you say, do you disagree with this? They’ll say, no, I don’t disagree but here are the following problems and they give you really candid answers. They turn right around and tell you how to make the deal. So the, you know, that’s if you’re going to ask a closed ended question at all, have it have the answer be known. Yes. Okay.

Chris: 00:21:45 So I have so many things I want to say on that. But first I’ve got to, I had a reframe this and come back to the transition from FBI to sales group to give some context and then I want to dive down into sales a little bit deeper because I know the audience is actually going to love this. So yeah, you get out of the FBI. How old are you when you go into the FBI? I am just sure to my 26th birthday. Okay. So my age, I’m 25 and a half. So you go into the FBI, when do you get out? 24 years later. 24 years later. Two days after my 50th birthday. 50th birthday eligible for retirement for two days. For two days. And you are out. So you come out of there. What, what’s the transitionary process? Cause I know you spend some time at Harvard, right?

Chris: 00:22:34 So like what’s the, you get out of the FBI, which is, you’ve been in it for 24 years, so you’re pretty ingrained in that lifestyle. What, what’s the next step for you in figuring out, all right, I’m going to go start a sales company. How did, how did that come about? Cause I feel like that might not be the most logical or the most normal thing for someone that’s been in the FBI for 24 years to do. Or maybe I’m wrong now. It’s, it’s not normal. And for all intents of, I am the only FBI hostage negotiator there spun out into the business world and actually we’re killing it. I mean, people love what we’re doing. So yeah. And why aren’t so one starting transition? Probably about four years before I got out a first of all wanting to actually wanting to learn more about business negotiation and bring it into hostage negotiation so we could get better.

Chris: 00:23:33 Uh, I know it’s a cliche, but this is how you actually think outside of the box. So go to Harvard, say, Hey guys, let me go through your course. And you know, I hadn’t had any hostage negotiators attend the course as in it as a student. So they were intrigued by that. And they’re like, yeah, you don’t want to, uh, Bob Manoukian phenomenal human being. Sheila Hayne, Doug Stone, I mean, the whole crew, they’re phenomenal people. I go through the class and, and there, those people say to me like, look, you’re doing the same stuff. We are you just doing it within a different arena. But it’s exactly the same dynamics. And on top of the fact, our protocols were more advanced than there’s war, which shocked me. You know, they had the, and several of them said, you know, you guys have defined this a much more specificity than we have.

Chris: 00:24:28 It’s clearer. You’re, we were more advanced stuff. What’s that? As, I mean, you’re the government. You didn’t, I guess you kind of expect that. Yeah. Well you hope for right. That’s, that’s very true. So, you know, now I’m like, now I’m intrigued. Now I’m blown away. I, you know, I go through their negotiation and I’m kind of getting the best of everyone at the Harvard law school students, which is there’s no shortage of entertainment there for me because I’m a small town boy from Iowa who barely had a four year degree at that point in time. And you’re showing up Harvard. Yeah, I’m slaughtering them. So, uh, then it came closer to me getting out now. Now I’m now I’m thinking all right, now this may actually be viable. So to transition out of the bureau, uh, I go into a program that they’re running, which is getting a master’s degree in a year instead of normally two.

Chris: 00:25:21 And while I’m there they say, hey, come back over here and teach with you. Went through as a student, come through and teach further, refine with further collaborate. And now, now I’m really into it and I, and I know this stuff is working if I do it, but now what I want to know is can I teach? Right? Cause you just cause you can do it doesn’t mean you can teach it. Those are, those are two different things. So, you know, they’re picking it up, they’re getting the idea, you know, my, my Harvard colleagues again, you know, Bob Manoukian, Sheila Hayne, Doug Stone, they’re helping me get it better. They’re helping me refine it. Now my son’s involved, my son Brandon, who’s my director of operations now he’s jumping in and we’re refining it. And, and so, uh, about a year after that I get invited back to teach there again with John Richardson [inaudible] and then a few months after that, now I’m full on.

Chris: 00:26:12 Georgetown gives me a chance to teach it in their business program. The students who are, they’re part-time, which means they get PR, they’re working in the day and you know, somebody, uh, best kind of student is somebody who’s got to apply it tomorrow morning. Yup, Yup. I got a problem tomorrow morning. It started today. I’m in your class tonight. Let’s see what you got. Tell me how to solve this tomorrow morning. And so then we real world application and once we had case studies of everybody actually apply on hostage negotiation in every kind of deal you can imagine that’s when we put the book out.

Josh: 00:26:51 Hmm. Okay. So what makes you go through and want to bring, like, cause you said that while you were still in the FBI, you went to Harvard, right? And was like, Hey, I want to see this. Is that an assignment that you get or is that just something you’re like, Yo, Mr boss, whoever your boss is, I want to start seeing if we can learn something from business. How does that come about?

Speaker 3: 00:27:15 Yeah, no, I, you know, I pitched the idea to my bosses, uh, and I had, I had great bosses at the time, were very supportive of learning and uh, and they really said, look is, you know, whatever you learn, you come back here and you share with us. And I’m like, yeah, that’s a great, that’s an easy one. You know, I’ve always believed in working as a team anyway. You want to go fast, go along, you want to go far goes a team. Yeah. And so they were, they were very supportive. Bring it back. Let’s see, let’s see what, let’s see what they got. Let’s see if we can collaborate.

Josh: 00:27:47 And so when you go and you do that, like you say you pitched it to your boss and this is all has been a question of mine, especially in a government scenario. But really with anyone that’s good at negotiation like I feel if I was like if I were to pitch you something, you would know exactly what I’m doing at every step of the way. Even if I was good. Right. Like you know exactly what I’m doing. So for your boss or whoever it is that you’re going to, I mean I assume that they have a lot of training in the same scenario. If, I mean if they’re your boss, how does one guy and like convince the other person when they know exactly what you’re doing at every step.

Chris: 00:28:25 Yeah, and that’s a great question because the real issue is not are you using negotiation skills on somebody? The issue is where are we going together? You know, one person once said to me, you know, your book is great because it’s really about

Josh: 00:28:38 how do you yes,

Chris: 00:28:40 yeah, the set on my team and then how do we work together? That’s really the issue. And my bosses know that we are working together. Um, you know, I am a relatively difficult person to supervise, but they always knew that I was about us working together so they can turn me loose because uh, you know, I’m a loose cannon but I’m shooting at the same target that they need to have hit. You know, the problem with the loose cannon is what are they shooting at? Well, I’m always shooting at a target that’s good for us. I’m always about advancing our agenda. So it, it, you know, it doesn’t really matter that I’m using negotiation skills on these guys because they know that I’m on their team. They know that they can trust me to have their back.

Josh: 00:29:26 Okay. And I think this is a perfect transition into the actual sales process. We just talked about you testing and proving these things over and over and over again before you applaud the book, start teaching it and now you’re talking about that it doesn’t matter if someone, whether or not you’re using sales tactics on them or negotiation tactics on them. It’s about where your going. So I want to, I want to dive into the actual sales methodology. Um, maybe getting it a little bit into the book material even. What’s the process? If I’m selling an, and I sell a lot to the online space, lot of, lot of the uh, my audience does as well. Agency services, marketing services, things of that nature, right? So I’ve got an appointment, I’m about to get on the call with someone. What’s the process that I’m trying to take someone through to get them on the same ground or the same level as I am and to, to paint that picture of where we’re going. How do you start that conversation and what’s the process that I take that I would take that person through?

Chris: 00:30:24 You know what? Well, don’t be horrified over control. I mean a lot of sales techniques is, you know, get control, get control, get control. All right, so if I’m on the other side of you control-oriented approach, I’m like, why are you scared to let me help steer this? Is it because I’m going to discover you’re trying to take me to a bad place and you’re trying to trap me in? Even if even if where we’re going as a good place, if you’re trying to force me there, if you’re trying to tie me down, if you’re trying to get micro agreements, if you’re horrified to let me speak, if shutting your mouth as a salesperson for two seconds scares you, then you’re making me nervous because now I’m losing my autonomy. I’m really worried about where we’re going. I mean, why are you so afraid to show me where we’re going?

Chris: 00:31:18 Even if you’re taking me to good place. I’m worried about that. So stop doing this stuff. It scares people right off the bat. I mean this autonomy is a hue. Autonomy is a much bigger issue and if it’s a salesperson, you’ve got people that are not getting back to you. Autonomy is the issue. Now in my company, we don’t have anybody that’s not getting back to me. Not One. Most business people have no less than 12 individuals that are nonresponders. They’re ghosted them. They’ve gone dark on them. They’re not getting back. Yeah. I would say 12 is 12 was the average. Um, I’d be shocked if you have less than three, unless you work for me or you one of my students or one of my clients, cause we don’t have anybody. It’s not getting back to us because we’re not fighting people over control, which means they get back to us and think about how much time you’re wasting wondering what’s going to happen with somebody who’s not getting back. So good.

Josh: 00:32:15 Yeah. Yeah. And it’s like, I feel like, and this is after reading your book, talking with you here, I feel like it’s like you’re just trying to just have, have a conversation with the person almost you. Like you want them to want to get back to you. Right? Like that’s, that’s part of your goal is what you’re doing. So you say it’s about autonomy. How, how does one judge, what’s working, what’s not working in that? So if I’m, you know, I’m going through, I’m learning about sales here and I’m going through and I’m saying, all right, this person didn’t get back to me, what on Earth went wrong? And I assume you know, you record sales calls or have at some points you can go back and listen to them. But what am I looking for to determine what’s working, what’s not working? Okay.

Chris: 00:32:59 All right. So let’s get into a little bit of systems thinking. Uh, and you, and we’re on the right track. Is Systems thinking is my system is perfectly designed to give me the outcome that I’m getting. So if they’re not getting back to you, it’s your fault. First of all, people always get back to someone who listens to them always. How much talking are you doing on a sales call? Like percentage wise, he or she who talks most loses. You should be talking no more than a third of the time. Yeah. Um, because you’re not gathering information. Yeah. You know, I had somebody correct me on the Cliche, you know, the cliche is you got, you got two ears and one mouth, which means the yields should listen twice as much as you thought. You know what, that’s not the ratio. It’s probably closer to five to one because you get, you also have two eyes and looking at them is going to give you feedback, you know, and then you know, as I mean the sense, what’s your sense, what’s your gut instinct?

Chris: 00:34:07 What’s your guns think telling you if you’re talking, you’re not taking in what your gut instinct is telling you. I mean you, you know, if you’re talking more than 20, 25% of the time, you probably run into the trouble. You’re missing information. They’re not giving you data. They feel trapped there. They people develop rapport with you by you listening, you know, uh, another phrase, interesting. People are interested. The more interested you are in them and what thereafter, the more interesting they find you. Again, the more likely they are to talk to you. So then I get back to number one, you’re not listening to it. Now, the other interesting aspect of this is if they’re not getting back to you, they’ve also wast influence on their side of the table.

Chris: 00:34:56 What do you mean lost? They’ve lost some effectiveness where they are. They become aware that somebody else is going to kill their deal and they have no control. They’ve become aware that they’ve been sent simply to gather information as opposed to make a deal. Talking to you is not doing them any good in helping them get to where they want to be. Now your problem is you gotta get back them back on the phone. You’ve got to communicate with them and find out what the situation actually is and if they’re losing influence on their side of the table, this is an embarrassing interaction to them and they’re not going to tell you as a result of asking questions. One of the strategic advantages we give people is when everybody knows that they have to gather information, nobody knows that questions are usually the worst way to gather information.

Chris: 00:35:51 You know, you’ve got to gather information, ask them questions, ask good questions. Now we don’t gather information via questions. We teach people how to provoke responses that are unguarded and unvarnished and unfiltered and there’s, you know, there’s a little bit more than a two-millimeter shift there. There’s is a little bit more of a mindset change that we need to point out to you and we need to help you understand. But what it is really is making verbal observations. We call them labels, how to design a label where you say something innocently like seems like it’s really frustrating for you on Oh, over there on your side. And what that’s going to do is it increases the likelihood that they’re going to tell you why it’s frustrating you say it seems like, you know, it seems like we’re under a lot of pressure there. Somebody is really demanding, they’re under pressure, you know, you can say what w you know, what kind of pressure are you under?

Chris: 00:36:47 Eh, you know, it’s okay. I’m fine. Seems like you’re under a lot of pressure. Yeah. I’ve gotta tell you something. My boss is kicking my ass. That to that shift in wording, which is huge increases the chance that they’re going to give me an unvarnished download on what’s really going on on the other side. And now you’ve got more information to say, Oh, you’ve got a boss involved. You, you’re not the decision maker. Right. Or you know, uh, the mythology in sales is get to the decision maker. Why is that mythology? The real problem is the deal teller. We were in, um, competition, uh, via as, as uh, through somebody else two or three years ago to get a contract with Verizon for their, for their negotiation training. And um, uh, the pitch was being made by the company we were working with. We didn’t make the pitch.

Speaker 3: 00:37:41 That sounds very self-serving to explain why we didn’t get the pitch, but through the, uh, through the process, the information we got back, that was at fully 50% of the deals that Verizon signs are never implemented. Now I’m at the tip of the iceberg guy, so I’m saying, all right, if this is happening to Verizon, they’re extremely capable company. That’s probably a good rule of thumb for all companies and 50% of the signed deals that’s crazy are not implemented. So what’s the problem? The problem is deal killers on the other side, the sales rep is getting the deal signed, but there are a weasel clauses in it that the other side wanted to have put in so that they’re deal killers can now kill the deal. You know the terms and conditions phase that everybody goes through or the weasel clause, that’s the satisfactory clause. You know they’ve gotten you to swallow, oh, turn around and kill the deal on you. It’s not a sin to take a long time to get the deal. It’s assumed to take a long time to not get the deed and this is a massive amount of time invested in not getting the deal because the deal killers on the other side of the table tanked it after everybody thought they had a d.

Josh: 00:39:04 I want to repeat back what you said there. You cut out there just real briefly and I want to make sure that I’m understanding or that the audience can understand what you’re saying when it comes to deal killers versus decision makers. What you’re saying is, and I know you’ve talked about this in the book, is that most people in sales, they’re like, hey, let’s get to the decision maker so that we can get a deal done. Right? Whereas you’re saying that’s not actually the issue. That’s not what you’re looking for. What you’re looking for is the deal killer. So for example, the decision maker, I’m going to use a much more simplify than maybe a Verizon example. But tell me if I’m on the right track here. The decision maker may be the owner of the company, right? However, the deal killer may be the wife or you know, vice versa. Right. And so what you’re saying is you’ve got to get the deal killer, the Wifi onboard, and if you can get her on board, then you’re good to go.

Chris: 00:39:55 Yeah, just get the deal killer. At least in the loop. A lot. A lot of the issues are the deal killers are mad that they were never consulted. They were never in a loop. So they sit back and they’re like, all right, you know, you didn’t pull me into the process, just try and do this without, I’ll give you another example. We got a trip, we’re talking about a training contract with a company and we’re talking to the CEO and the head of HR. Now one would think that the CEO was the decision maker and if it wasn’t, then at least the head of HR was going to be part of it. And they said, yeah, you know, I gotta tell you what, um, you know, the guy that’s the head of sales, they are given away this store. Oh my God, they’re, their salespeople are just, they’re getting killed. And you know, we got to get this training for that guy. And we had a whole training schedule that we worked out and we were talking about scheduling dates. And then low and behold, they stopped talking to us.

Chris: 00:40:54 Well, who killed the deal? The guy they wanted the training for. Most of all US bringing in a training process that he was not involved in bringing in, sent the message to him that he was a screw-up and he wasn’t. And that also it was his fault that his people were given a company, they given a store away. Now he can’t admit that, you know, that’s an embarrassment. It’s not my fault. And I’m sure as heck not going to allow you guys to bring in training that I haven’t approved. And he killed the deal on us and, and we never got the deal and was a, that was the last time we got sucked into that

Josh: 00:41:38 with sales, especially with things like this. How much of this is logical versus emotional?

Chris: 00:41:46 Uh, I gotta tell you something. Uh, everything is emotional. Yeah, I can, I can, I could lay out the, I could lay out the brain science right now and explain, explain at length whether the neuroscience supports the fact that we do not have a logical thought in our head because we tell ourselves that. But the neuroscience tells us a unequivocably or unequivocally always have trouble with that word. But I love it. You know, I can’t pronounce the words I want to use, but you know what they mean. That’s what I know. I know when I see it. Um, every thought that we have in our head, the neuroscientists are not certain whether thoughts start in the emotional side of, of our brain, which is known as the limbic system, or simply go through the limbic system. But we do not possess a thought that our emotional apparatus, our limbic system is not intertwined in neuroscience, which means we don’t have a thought that lacks emotion. We don’t make a decision without emotion. And actually, interestingly enough, further on, they’ve shown that if you pull emotions out of our decision making process, we actually can’t make a decision. We can follow directions if this happens, do that. But we can’t make decisions because we can’t wait things out because we wait things out based on what we care about. So every decision, every sales person is trying to get somebody to make is in fact a decision that has emotion interwoven with it.

Josh: 00:43:22 Hmm. Interesting. So when it comes to things like objective thinking per se, when you’re trying to take a third party or a third, third person view or removing as much emotion as possible from it to simply look at facts rather than letting emotion getting involved in things. And I like to think of that as objective or logical thinking. Right. How much does logic, I mean I understand what you just said with the emotion being part of everything, but how much does logic play into a sale or a decision making process with someone? I mean there’s people that are buy off of emotion just like right like that. And then there’s a lot more like the accounting type people I like to call them that are very logical, very numbers oriented. How much does that play into actually getting someone to commit to and follow through on a deal? Or is it really emotional?

Chris: 00:44:15 Well, what is their logic to start with? So yeah, everybody thinks they have a logical process, but at some point in time you have to, uh, evaluate, you know, give a value to the facts. You know what matters here? What’s start putting valuations on thing. Value is based on what we care about. So you know there’s our value issues are gonna start with how we weigh things out emotionally and then the mind bender then, then the, and this is what we referred to in the book is bending reality

Chris: 00:44:52 loss every if you’re a human being. And so this only applies to human beings, lost things, lost things twice as much as an equivalent gain. That’s from prospect theory. Dan Khaneman wrote, thinking fast and slow won the Nobel Prize in behavioral economics in 2002 because this is a fact of human life. What does that mean? $5 when I pay for it, I got to get $10 in return in value at least or I’m not going to make the deal. If you’re offering me something that gives me a 20% rate of return on my investment, that’s inadequate. I need a hundred percent rate of return on my investment. So your pitching game to me based on neutral third party valuations of what a dollar is worth and what the return on investment is. No matter how much you lay that out, I’m not gonna weigh it that way because I’m always gonna overestimate the value of the dollars that I’ve spent. And I’m always gonna underestimate the value that I’ve received.

Josh: 00:46:04 And, and the value you received at a dollar. I mean, in terms of like value doesn’t necessarily have to be just dollars back, right? I mean it’s whatever we perceive as value back. Correct.

Chris: 00:46:16 Right now. And then we gotta start, I gotta start getting into your head to find out what you perceive as value. Yeah.

Josh: 00:46:22 So it’s not always with the dollars and cents. So for someone that has lost, okay, maybe control or not control, they, they’ve had a bad conversation. They got on the phone with someone. They are negotiating, I don’t know, a deal where they’re doing well. Let’s say it’s 3000 a month or $5,000 a month, right? It’s a deal for a year. It’s worth 60 grand in all. Um, and they’ve had, they’ve had a bad conversation and they can’t get the person to call them back or they haven’t been able to. What’s the next steps? Are you following up, following up, follow up, follow up, like, you know, grant Cardone style or are you letting it go and moving on to the next one? Like what’s, what’s your technique for all right. The, that conversation didn’t go well and watch what’s next fight. So I value

Chris: 00:47:09 my time, you know, um, if you’re too hard for me to get to, I’m probably not going to continue the follow up. However, my next follow up is going to be a two-pronged approach. I’m going to send you a one line message. It’s to go in an email or it’s going to go in a text and it’s going to be one line and one Lionel. And I’m going to say, have you given up on doing business with me or have you given up on this, the sale or whatever it is. And I have sent that message out. Had you given up on x now 999 times out of a thousand. Which is pretty good. Batting every, I’m going to get a response back somewhere between three and 30 minutes from sending that out and it has to go out like that word for word. I had a woman once said to me, I sent that text that I didn’t work. And I’m like, all right, cool. Interesting, possible. Tell me word for word what you sent out. And she said, yeah, well I thought that sounded a little harsh, you know, and so instead of saying, have you given up on doing business with me? I sent out a lot, a message and said, should we give up on having lunch together so we can discuss the process? And I’m like, I wouldn’t answer that either.

Chris: 00:48:42 And you got on to understand where they’re very so okay, you’ve gotta be careful of the week crap. Your boss comes to you and said, hey look, we’ve got a problem. Is that what the boss means? Yeah, no. He’s like, you got a problem, you have a problem. And so we disguise, you know, we use we as a disguise or for you all the time. It’s just, it’s so bad. So the one line is had you given up on doing business with me, word for word. Now you’re going to get a response anywhere from three to 30 minutes. I’m not kidding, but now what do you do to follow up? They haven’t been listened to. They’re not talking to you because you’ve shown them that you don’t listen to them. So when you get them back on a phone, where you have to do is summarize the perspective from their situation. Do not repeat your pitch. Do not repeat, would cause them to go dark in the first place. [inaudible]

Chris: 00:49:41 but man, so many people do that. I everybody does it, you know, summarize it from their perspective and throw in, you know, you’re probably having a hard time with this. You probably think I’m not paying attention to you. You got to especially summarize this stuff that you don’t like. I mean, I would ask anybody listening to this also take a look at my ted talk because that’s when I say I must say it eight times. Summarize this stuff you don’t like summarize this stuff from their perspective. Meaning what? What does that look like? All right. What that looks like is, and that getting back to you because they don’t feel listened to. So you say you probably not getting back to me cause you don’t feel listened to you probably, you know they’re not getting back to you because the process is not moving them forward.

Chris: 00:50:24 You say, you know what? This process probably hasn’t moved you forward at all. You’re probably asking yourself while you’re talking to me at all, because that is in fact what’s going on. You’ve got to get the voice in their head to shut up. You don’t get the voice in her head to shut up by contradicting it. You get the voice in her head to shut up by articulating what it’s saying. Now suddenly you resonate with the voice in their head and you keep at this until they say to you that, right? So if you get it wrong, it’s not over. You just keep saying, okay, well then maybe this. Well, the great thing is if you’re actually trying to solve it or articulate it from their perspective, if you get it wrong, they’re going to go, no, no, no, no, no. That’s not it. This is what it is.

Chris: 00:51:09 Now, that being corrected is one of the ideal places on a planet to be because people love the correct and when they correct they tell you the truth. I want you to repeat that one more time for the audience to hear because I don’t think very many people understand that. So one more time for the audience in the back being corrected is one of the ideal places on the planet to be. The other side loves it, which means now they’re in an interaction with you that they love, which bodes well for future interactions. And when they correct, they tell you the truth. So to the people out there that are like, aw man, if I feel corrected, I feel like they think that I’m not credible or that I don’t know what I’m talking about and therefore they’re going to see me as less than not wanting to do business with me.

Chris: 00:52:03 What would you say to that? You’re leaving money on the table. You are killing yourself. You are Lee. You know it’s an emotional intelligence move. One of the smartest moves on a planet and your fears getting in your way and your fear is stopping you from living in a bigger house. I love that. I love that. So you said it was a two pronged approach and maybe we covered the second one already, but the first one was that text or that email. One line. What was part two of that? Yeah, I get it. That’s right. And part one is to get a no out of them. Part two is to get advanced right out of them. You get her, that’s right out of them. Now your next move is, is exactly this. I’m going to do it perfectly.

Chris: 00:52:51 Dead fricking silence. Shut the front door. Shut up. Let them Boyd. So if they reply back, you just don’t reply. When when you get it that’s right out on them. They will never be more inclined towards you than they are in that moment. The secret of negotiation is letting the other side have your way at that point in time. Let them give you the deal. Let them outline it for you. Now in the extremely unlikely event that they don’t, but you have to give them a chance to do so, count one thousands in your sub code, you know, one, 1000, two, 1000. If you get to 10, and only if you get the 10, then you say, how would you like to proceed? And that’s if you’re on like on the phone with them, not via email. Exactly. I mean you, um, it’s hard to get to, that’s right out of somebody via email, emails or bad moods, emails or playing chess.

Chris: 00:53:55 And you don’t want to make seven chess moves in one email. So this is on the phone and personally you get on, okay, right? That’s right out of, um, verbally shut the front door. If you count the 10 and you will not, you will get to three and they’ll start talking again. But anyway, you gotta wait to 10 very differentially. You hit them with a magic age question. How would you like to proceed? How would you like to proceed? Now you know the roadmap and you know the best possible roadmap. If it doesn’t work for you, you just made yourself smarter and you move on and you move on. That’s awesome.

Josh: 00:54:33 That’s how so good. How, what would you say to people, and you’ve mentioned this several times in this and I think it’s probably one of the most common fears in sales. I know it was for me for a long time and it is for many of the people that I work with being too aggressive or awkward or seeing like you know like, oh man, that sounds a little too much like this and just leaving it to where it’s uncomfortable. How important is it to be uncomfortable or go into those uncomfortable situations and what would you say to the people that want to be the Nice Guy, right? They’re like, I don’t like to put people, I don’t like to do high-pressure sales tactics or whatever those things are. What’s the importance of that?

Chris: 00:55:12 Well, these are not high PR, high-pressure tactics. And when you’re trying to cut somebody off at the pass and get these micro agreements and you only want yes, that’s high-pressure crap and yeah, you don’t want that. Now is a, how can I be assertive and be nice? I mean I want, I want both things. I can, I want to be likable. I’m going to be likable. I don’t care if you like, I’m going to be likable. No matter how you react. I’m going to be positive. I’m going to be respectful, I’m going to be deferential and I’m going to assert on behalf of both of us. I’m looking for the best deal for both of us. These two things go hand in hand, likeability search. Uh, you have to, otherwise, you know what? I live in a trailer as a salesperson.

Chris: 00:55:57 Go ahead, look for another job and in another year, uh, fall shorter. Your numbers, you know, your fears are holding you back in respect and deference and credibility. Are you calling cards? If you can’t be assertive, why you’re being respectful and deferential and credible. If they don’t like it, you don’t want to do business with them. Yeah, no, that’s, that’s super, super good. Wow. Okay. Um, I have several more questions. I want to be respectful of time here though as well. I want to kind of move into the wrap up phase here. Uh, we’ll have a couple of rapid fire questions here at the end, but before I get to that point, um, when it comes to say like what you study and what you learn when it comes to sales, what’s like, where do you go to learn about these things? I mean, you’ve been in the FBI for 24 years, you’ve done business with this.

Chris: 00:56:50 Obviously you have your own book, which is phenomenal. I’ve read it multiple times. It’s one of the only books that I’ve read more than twice. Um, where do you go to learn? Like what are your favorite books? Where are your favorite learning tactics to, to learn and test sales and things of that nature? Yeah. Now we’re, we’re reading all the time and we’re talking about related type issues. So performance learning, team building, uh, two authors. I’m very big fan of Steven Kotler, uh, author of the rise of Superman and stealing fire all about performance. Kotler’s probably the planet’s leading expert on the mindset of flow, which is where you want to be because you perform higher in flow. Daniel Coyle wrote the talent code and the culture code. Daniel corals book, the talent code is about how to get better. The culture code is about how to make your team better, how to help people get better.

Chris: 00:57:45 Uh, so yeah, we’re, we’re reading all the time. Huge fans are those books. Eric Parker road barking up the wrong tree. The science of success. Eric is a regular guy, is re-read everything out there on success and put it in a book that’s really interesting and uh, and a great read. I mean, so we’re reading all the time and always looking for people like that that can teach us more. That’s awesome. Uh, so the podcast think different theories. It’s all about mindset and we talk a lot about the conscious mind, retraining your habits for success. A lot of business focus on there as well. For you, when it comes to the mindset of sales and just success in general, what do you see as like the key determining factors for anyone’s success, but specifically your success? What are you looking to do and constantly train your mind to spot and do on a daily or weekly basis to keep you in that flow?

Chris: 00:58:42 Like what’s, what are the key tricks? Uh, take action and learn. Um, okay. And, and from the, uh, from another aspect, you know, what are the unforgivable sin? Um, inaction is almost unforgivable. And then failing to learn, I mean, you need those two things coupled. I mean, you gotta take action, you know, if you’re not failing, you’re not taking enough action, you leaving money on the table. But how does one get over the fear of failure? How’d you get over that intellectually? Um, your net gain is much higher as long as you’re learning emotionally, just doing it enough times and coming to accept that now that takes a lot work. There is no rational reason to be afraid of failure. You run the numbers and the numbers are always in your favor. If you’re, if, if you, if you fail three out of 10 times than 70% of the time you win.

Chris: 00:59:49 And, and rationally, intellectually, I mean casinos are built on a 51% success rate, 51% so anything over 50% and you’re, you’re net ahead. The problem is your emotional reaction to it because I said before last things twice as much as an equivalent game. We remember our failures, we’re embarrassed by them. Even if they taught us a lot. You see, I’m never going to let that happen again. I’ll never do that again. You just left all kinds of learning on the table. So emotionally it’s a challenge. Yeah. It is a heck of a challenge and start to look at it and others and realize it’s happening with you. I mean, I realized it happens to me all the time and it is an ongoing challenge to overcome because I’m only hurting me.

Josh: 01:00:31 Yeah. For sure. All right, last, uh, last kind of question related to these topics, the topics of sales and what you’ve done. Then we’ll get into some rapid fire ones. Um, when it comes to ethics in sales and being, you know, an ethical salesperson, how do you draw the line of that? And I mean, because I think one of the biggest things for me where I struggled when I got into sales is there, you know, there’s the saying that ignorance is bliss, right? So when I first got into sales, I kind of sucked at it and then all of a sudden after more practice I started getting better and better and better. I was a great, this was going on. And then I started studying why I was good at it and I started realizing that the process that was going on in people’s brains and I was like, oh my gosh, this is manipulation. I mean in a good way, right? Marketing and sales or whatnot. But where do you draw the line as far as like, Hey, I’ve taken this too far, too much, you know, playing with them too much, making them do this, like this is not in the best interest for them anymore. And, uh, I need to just withdraw cause I’m trying too hard to convince them that this is good for them or is there a line there?

Chris: 01:01:38 No. You know, um, people are going to find out, uh, your lack of ethics are going to catch up with you. Um, and it’s, it’s a, there’s a tremendous temptation. You know, I can, if I lie to them, I’ll get the D uh, well first of all, uh, there’s a pretty good chance or a better liar than you and um, they’re just trying to test you to see if you lied to them. I mean, lying is such a bad idea and period. It doesn’t matter what you think it’s going to get you line is a bad idea. So yeah, ethics are very important. First of all, it’s an issue of where am I taking them? Um, is this a total exploitation? Hmm, that’s a, that’s the first issue. Second issue is my line to him to get him there. Okay. I gotta tell you something.

Chris: 01:02:28 Even a great EAD, the greatest liars are found out. And the other problem with lying is really high maintenance stuff. It is, uh, you know, it’s high maintenance on your end cause you got to remember what lies you told. And then it’s a, the influence doesn’t last from a lie, which means you have to be in frequent contact with them. You have to be lying to them frequently to keep them on track. And I don’t have time for that. I mean we got too many customers that we can keep on track having a trust based relationship trust-based because we have integrity and we’re not taking them into a bad place. So, you know, I don’t need frequent contact with them, which means that telling the truth in a long haul is a better strategy cause it saves time. Yeah. For sure.

Josh: 01:03:14 Well, Chris, uh, thank you so much. I want to go into some rapid fire questions just really quick here at the end if you don’t mind. But I really appreciate you coming on here, uh, and uh, chatting with us and we got to tell everybody about the newsletters. Yes. Yeah. I mean we’re going to get to that after the rapid fire questions. We do. We can talk about it now too. Um, but one of the rapid fire questions is actually kind of about that. And actually let’s, let’s start there. Um, you have, you have events, live events or just online,

Chris: 01:03:40 uh, w we train you however best suits your brain. We have impersonal live events. We’ve got online training and in several formats. Now we’ve got, we’ve got a video training course out there, which is audio and video together. Uh, we’ve got um, uh, just straight reading, reading based stuff. Uh, it depends on how you want to download your brain. We got, we got stuff on Youtube, we’ve got live events, man, the live events rock you had, you’ve got to bring your a game to come to a live event though, baby. I mean, you better be ready to go if you come to one of our in person.

Josh: 01:04:14 And that’s what I was going to ask. So comparatively, I mean, I always think the live events are better than courses. I mean, I just think it sticks the environment, the energy, you know, everything that’s related to that. But like

Chris: 01:04:25 real quick,

Josh: 01:04:26 two second summary of like a live event. I’m walking into this,

Speaker 3: 01:04:30 what am I, what am I walking out with? Like what should I expect going into this immersion? Um, you know, you’re working on a foreign language. We are going to bring you in. We’re going to make you speak the language. We’re going to show you how to be successful. We’re going to increase your recognition. We’re going to get at some of the subtleties that you, that we haven’t got a chance for you to really dig into in the book. You know, what have we discovered about our main skills? What skills work most, what’s your highest batting average? And then we’re going to make you test drive them to a point to increase your comfort level. So actually if you’re listening to us in a class, you can get up and go make a phone call and cut a deal that you probably couldn’t have cut before the day start. And there you go. There you go.

Josh: 01:05:12 All right, real quick, some rapid fire questions for you. Then we’ll get to the newsletter as well. Um,

Chris: 01:05:18 favorite thing about the FBI when you were in the FBI?

Chris: 01:05:23 Uh, you know, match me. I mean, I needed, I needed an autonomy. I needed to be very entrepreneurial in my approach and I found bosses that were comfortable turning me loose and letting me make cases and I really enjoyed, you know, making my own cases versus being told what to do, being told what to do. Does the FBI pay good for law enforcement? The FBI pays pretty good. I mean, we’re at the higher end of the pay scale with the higher end for federal law enforcement. Eh, you know, our basic pace skill is slightly higher than, than for the DEA or for secret service or for, for a customs and treasury. So yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s a decent amount of money. Kind of puts you a little bit above middle class, you know, upper middle class enough. So you make a living, you don’t go need, you don’t need a part-time job to pay your bills to bay bells to that.

Chris: 01:06:16 That’s good. That’s good. Uh, least favorite thing about the FBI. Wow. Um, wow. Uh, that’s a tough question. I mean, I would occasionally, I mean, there’s certain things which are my least favorite thing about life. Uh, you know, you know, people who are afraid to make a decision, uh, law enforcement executives across the board tend to be risk averse, uh, which you probably want, right? Um, I am, uh, I lead towards risk and, uh, you know, I scared, I scared the hell out of a lot of, uh, a lot of bosses in law enforcement. Uh, and so when you first meet me on the frightening person, okay. Uh, number one piece of advice when it comes to sales, you don’t let the other side talk first. I mean, if you, if you can get out of this hole, I gotta pitch, I gotta be in control. I got to talk. Hmm. Um, if you can actually listen to what the other side says, you’re gonna you, you’re gonna raise your batting. Hmm. I love that. I love that. Uh, purely from a FBI perspective or from a, a military perspective, um, or however you want to say that. What do you think? A Trump,

Josh: 01:07:42 all right.

Chris: 01:07:44 Oh, yeah. Some stuff he does. I like some stuff he does at all. Like, I mean I’m, I’m much more of an issue related guy in, in um, in the history of the United States, we have come to where no president is going to try to do anything a effectively, they’re going to risk themselves in foreign policy until the second half of their second time look at every president, you know, they always want to weigh into tricky issues in the Middle East. Second half of their second term you only presidents who have not to date have been Carter and Bush 41 and they didn’t get a second term and the rest of the world has noticed that Trump on the other hand has weighed in with both feet to foreign policy issues from day one, which has been a game changer. And you know, like I said, I don’t want to take a specific issue on a politically yes or no overall good or bad.

Chris: 01:08:45 I like that he’s changed the game in foreign. The goat was she Asian jury’s still out on as to how that’s where, how that’s going to go. But anybody that has a disruptive approach and then his willingness, I mean I think he got slaughtered on Fox for saying this, but in trying to work things out with a ran recently and he actually used empathy. So you know, I’ve got no problem with the ran. I love to see random be great, you know, make a ran great again. I mean that’s very disarming, you know, and especially coming from him, you know, he’s catching the Iranians off guard with that. They’re like, maybe yeah, maybe this is not a win lose zero sum game. So you know, I find that stuff interesting. He’s a good negotiator. Yeah. As an assertive. He’s the best in his class as an assertive.

Chris: 01:09:39 Now there, there are both pros and cons and uh, there’s, there’s fight flight, make friends, assertive, analytical relationship oriented to be a complete negotiator. You need attributes of all three types and if you only stay in one type, you have some serious limitations. He is principally only assertive. That gets you so far and then you run into the same brick walls over and over and over again. It makes sense. Well, Chris, your newsletter is where people can find out more about you. How would they go about finding that? Where can they go and what can they expect from that? Because I mean there’s been a great interview and I really appreciate the time there, so where can people go to find that simplest ways that text to sign of function. Now it is on our website, which is Black Swan, but the simplest way to get to the newsletter because it’s the gateway to the website and everything else is there’s a text to sign of function.

Chris: 01:10:36 We set up to make it real simple. None of the number you text to, there’s 22 eight 28 again, the number you’re texting to is two two eight two eight the message you send is FBI empathy. All one word, only a spellcheck. Put a space between FDI and empathy, which is going to want to do, it’s gotta be all one word, lower case, FBI empathy sent to the number two, two, eight, two eight. You’ll get a text response back asking you for your email, sign up for the newsletter and you’re off to the races. Newsletters free. It’s short, sweet and concise. That’s what people love about it. Actionable

Josh: 01:11:14 information that it doesn’t take you an hour to utilize that day. The last year, one of the last articles we put out work here are the utility companies most likely to renegotiate your utility bills. Here are the percentages they typically will drop. Here’s the game plan for renegotiate your bill. That’s incredible. So you can implement and act, you know, take action on this stuff right away. Okay, so FBI empathy, two, two, two eight, two eight. Yes. All right, we’ll put that down in the description as well. Guys. Uh, please check. Check this out. Chris is amazing and if you have not read his book, um, get it. Chris, I hope to meet you someday. And, uh, just I want a signed copy of your book, I want a picture with you. Um, you’re someone that has really changed and helped me, uh, get better at sales and get better at negotiations.

Josh: 01:12:05 In fact, shortly after I read your book, this is actually a true story. Probably, I don’t know, mm. Within three or four months of reading your book and applying the tactics, I closed my largest deal at the time, uh, which for me was 60 grand. Um, and uh, I appreciate that. I just, it’s amazing. So thank you so much for, uh, for coming on here and sharing your wisdom with us. I’ve got one final question for you though, and I end every podcast interview I ever do with this question. And if you don’t mind, I’d like to ask you that far away. All right. You are on your deathbed end of your life. All right. And I know there’s a morbid thought, but if it gets better, everything that you’ve done in life, every person that you touched and influenced, everyone that knows you has no idea who you are. Like all your accomplishments are gone. And however you get to leave all those people, everyone that you’ve ever touched and come in contact with, with one final message that will stick with them for the rest of their life. What is that message to them?

Chris: 01:13:02 Just be just a little nicer, a little nicer. Stick to your principles. Stick to the things that you believed in, you know, you know, never stop advocating on behalf of what you believe in. Advocate for what you believe in this. Probably be just a little nicer about it. Don’t change and you’re gonna find out that you get a lot far. That’s awesome. Chris, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate your time. I have thoroughly enjoyed the conversation, man. Thanks for having me on. Absolutely guys, this has been the incredible Chris Voss. Check him out. We’ll link all of his stuff down in the description of the podcast. As always, hustle, hustle, God bless. Do not be afraid to think different because those of us that think different are going to be the ones that change the world. If you have any questions, feel free to hit us up or hit Chris’s team up and uh, we’ll be sure to get back with you.

Josh: 01:14:01 I love you all and I will see you on the next podcast episode. Take it easy. Bam. Peace. Yo, what’s up guys? You’ve been listening to The Think Different Theory with myself, Josh Forti, which I like to call, “A new paradigm of thinking”, and real quick, I got a question for you. Did you like this episode? If you did, I want to ask a huge favor. See, the biggest thing that helps this podcast grow, and that will spread this message of positivity and making the world a better place, is if you leave a review, a rating and subscribe to the podcast. What that does is, it basically tells the platforms that this is out on, that you like my stuff, and that I’m doing something right. So if you could take like three seconds out of your day and subscribe, leave a rating, and a review, I would be forever grateful for you. Also, I want to hear from you. I want to know your feedback, your ideas, and your questions for future episodes. So be sure to hit me up on Instagram in the DM @JoshForti or via email